I have to admit that I don't know. I'm not LDS myself, though I know quite a few since I used to be, and even outside of that I keep running into them and becoming friendly. I guess the culture still works for me even if the religion didn't. But with the shot having been such a point of controversy I haven't asked people about it. I'd much rather talk about something far less likely to cause an argument, like guns or politics. And isn't that an ironic state of things.
I don’t live too far from there , I’m not Mormon and don’t go to church there but the community and surrounding communities are devastated. The police in various communities sit by various churches now on Sunday .
A huge Thank you to Sim Comm for getting this out there. Nothing really hits you until it happens in your own backyard. Prayers for the families and the 1st responders. And thanks to the intelligent, thoughtful commenters on this Substack. I am proud to be a member of this community.
Grand Blanc is a suburb south of Flint. Looks like this was the main Mormon church for the Flint area, so would be the big, obvious target if the man lived in the vicinity.
Well, yet again after a typical day seeing endless Tunnel to Towers and Wounded Warrior Project ads I wonder why any of our vets must still need to beg for help from charities after they come home all fucked up in the service of their country.
The guy who recently shot up that fish restaurant from a boat was also a vet, one of whose closest friends had to retreat from him and get a restraining order because the guy had descended into paranoid schizophrenia.
Very very unstable people will find the excuse they need to finally listen to the terrible voices in their heads. This guy here was still obsessed with an old breakup despite having a wife and child now? Well, his child has a very serious chronic illness that sounds extremely challenging to manage and his wife and mother are endless posters about their own (non-Mormon) Christian faith and perhaps, knowing of his romantic history in Utah before moving to Michigan, they couldn't refrain from now and then casting the best disparagements they could come up with on the old girlfriend because, you know, sometimes women do that.
Another one of those awful tragedies with so many layers they're like a blooming onion of horror and grief.
Yep. The service of the VA and related agencies is abysmal. One of my friends briefly worked as a sort of go-between for vets to schedule non-VA appointments. She gave up in frustration.
There's a picture of him wearing a Trump 2020 shirt in a 2019 FB post that certainly SEEMS like the real thing. (Not having a FB account, I don't know how easy it would be to fool the system, it seems like "not very.")
And if there's a silver lining, it's that the attack was WAY more personal than political, so there shouldn't be any sort of amping up of violence.
Big huge debate in the comments about whether you can backdate a photo and not have it show up in edit history. It looks like no, but once again I don't know much about FB.
Apparently the wife and friends said his behavior was starting to change . Some thought he had PTSD issues from serving in the war . I honestly don’t know, it was part of the community gossip.
This was a very awful event. I’m so sad for the victims and all who were affected. I don’t care what denomination they were or even if it was a non-religious gathering. I’m definitely not pro-Muslim but I would be equally affected if someone firebombed and killed Muslims. I blame the left and MSM for fomenting violence against all kinds of people and groups.
I understand you're asking this seriously, and in that same vein I reply, "This is nothing".
Humans kill each other for the most ridiculous reasons. The last several decades have been pretty amazing on that front in America, but it's not like this is the first time an LDS church has had people bust into it to commit murder.
There's crazy people everywhere and they take it out on the rest of us all the time.
America has mostly avoided megadeaths, or even kilodeaths, in various internicine religious conflicts, but we've still had plenty.
My question was more directed to the what has happened to Americans as a culture in the last several decades. But of course what you say is true. War and death are a part of life, even in church, even today.
When I was a child my father would always greet Mormons, who were invariably male, at the door with a shotgun and ask them to leave or ask them to come in and remove their clothes, whereupon they would hurriedly leave. (Jehovahs Witneses were different in that they would sometimes send attractive young women, as bait.) Subsequently, I never got to find out much about Mormons. Are they actually Christians?
When growing up, my father would ask all the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their ilk in to deliver their spiel, only with the requirement that they listen to him proselytize atheism.
My late husband got tired of the JWs coming to the door (usually young to middle aged women) coming to the door. He answered the door naked. There was one more visit and I guess the word was passed on. Blood on the door, so to speak.
Disclaimer: I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I find it absurd that someone who professes to believe in Jesus Christ is spouting nonsense about another church's belief in Jesus Christ. There are ideas of the Trinity that we DO NOT believe, and this is the major difference. Our beliefs are that Jesus and God the Father are different corporeal beings, with the Holy Ghost (Spirit) making up the Godhead. (think of it as a team)
James 14:6 (KJV) says " Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Sounds like two separate people.
Matthew 3:16-17 (KJV) says of Jesus' baptism:
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
There's more here indicative of 3 separate beings than believing they're all in one, when one is standing in the water, and the other one is speaking from heaven. Meanwhile a visualization of a 3rd spiritual party descending on Jesus.
Please. Save yourself. Stop trying to damn other people with unrighteous judgements. You don't have the power or authority to say who is not a Christian.
Greg Matsen, also a member of the church spoke with some degree of righteous anger towards those who seek to unfairly castigate us as non-Christians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZUXaSiuxRU
LDS has taken parts of Christianity and created a totally different theology. It’s the same difference between Christianity and Judaism and Islam. LDS is a religion of works based on a different god. The differences you mentioned are critical. God is self-existing. He did not work himself up the ladder. Jesus was not created via a sexual act. He is God. Humans are never going to be gods like God. See godlovesmormons.com for more explanation.
It’s the same difference as religions that don’t proclaim Christ is King? Um, ok. Makes no sense. We both believe Christ alone will save us.
That makes us both Christian even though you believe in the man made creeds and we believe in the biblical and prophetic word. New Testament Christian’s did not believe in the trinity. See Stephen who saw the Father and the Son on his right hand.
Romans 8:17 says we will be joint heirs with Christ. You have to hand wave away the parts of the New Testament that disagree with your creeds and your theology suffers bc of it.
Right? I mean, who could think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints were Christians?
Obviously mere belief in Jesus isn't enough, one has to follow the precepts of the Council of Nicea 300 years after his death -- since clearly they were the absolute experts -- or one is simply a heretic. I mean, just ask Emperor Justinian!
It’s not just belief in the name of Jesus that matters . What you believe about Jesus is critical. Even the demons believe. Do you believe that your sins were forgiven by his sinless life , death, and resurrection? Do you believe that God is the creator of the universe and everything in it , including humans and angels ? Mormons don’t . Do you believe salvation is by grace through faith? These are foundational principles from the teachings of Jesus.
You are very confident, yet ignorant. Members of Christ’s church do believe in being forgiven by Christ who was sinless and resurrected the 3rd day. We also believe he created the world.
Grace is what saves us. But we believe works are also important to showing what type of person we are and desire to be. Christ spoke of works and commanded specific things be done on numerous occasions. I don’t think he was mistaken. Ultimately doing your best to be your best is what I think God wants us to do with the time we’ve been given. But in the end grace will still be what saves you.
Nobody in authority made you or the creeds you adhere to the gate of Christianity. Stop trying to close it on people that differ from you in the details but absolutely agree Christ is Lord.
They were always welcome but I don't know what exactly happened because I would always be sent to my room after they were invited in. I have since met quite a few Jehovah's Witness women, although most were "disfellowshipped," even before meeting me.
That could be. He was much more favorably disposed to the females than to the male. If any of the males had disrobed I think he would have used the shotgun.
Sad.
Just do not have a beef with mormons. Really, what a waste of time.
It is tragic this had to happen
Thank you Mildred for your contribution
I'm kind of shocked he didn't get mag-dumped by a dozen church-goers.
Mormons are (in my experience) *incredibly* heavily armed.
But.
At a resistance meeting early in the plandemic I asked if the CLDS had resisted the clot-shot nonsense.
I was told "no" but have not further researched the reply.
With your experience did you notice any resistance?
I have to admit that I don't know. I'm not LDS myself, though I know quite a few since I used to be, and even outside of that I keep running into them and becoming friendly. I guess the culture still works for me even if the religion didn't. But with the shot having been such a point of controversy I haven't asked people about it. I'd much rather talk about something far less likely to cause an argument, like guns or politics. And isn't that an ironic state of things.
*laughing head shake*
The churches policy is to not pack heat. Maybe it’ll change… we’ll see.
He didn't exactly come in the front door....
Understood. Let me rephrase. Mormons are some of *the single most heavily armed Americans* that I know.
I don’t live too far from there , I’m not Mormon and don’t go to church there but the community and surrounding communities are devastated. The police in various communities sit by various churches now on Sunday .
Thank you to our “Local Screamer” and to Mildred for the editing! (Every good Screamer needs a cat!)
A huge Thank you to Sim Comm for getting this out there. Nothing really hits you until it happens in your own backyard. Prayers for the families and the 1st responders. And thanks to the intelligent, thoughtful commenters on this Substack. I am proud to be a member of this community.
And a huge thank-you to our undercover Screamer.
Grand Blanc is a suburb south of Flint. Looks like this was the main Mormon church for the Flint area, so would be the big, obvious target if the man lived in the vicinity.
Thank you "local Screamer"!
Well, yet again after a typical day seeing endless Tunnel to Towers and Wounded Warrior Project ads I wonder why any of our vets must still need to beg for help from charities after they come home all fucked up in the service of their country.
The guy who recently shot up that fish restaurant from a boat was also a vet, one of whose closest friends had to retreat from him and get a restraining order because the guy had descended into paranoid schizophrenia.
Very very unstable people will find the excuse they need to finally listen to the terrible voices in their heads. This guy here was still obsessed with an old breakup despite having a wife and child now? Well, his child has a very serious chronic illness that sounds extremely challenging to manage and his wife and mother are endless posters about their own (non-Mormon) Christian faith and perhaps, knowing of his romantic history in Utah before moving to Michigan, they couldn't refrain from now and then casting the best disparagements they could come up with on the old girlfriend because, you know, sometimes women do that.
Another one of those awful tragedies with so many layers they're like a blooming onion of horror and grief.
Yep. The service of the VA and related agencies is abysmal. One of my friends briefly worked as a sort of go-between for vets to schedule non-VA appointments. She gave up in frustration.
Yet another reason I've always despised flag-waving Republican officials who never actually serve the men and women who serve the flag so bravely.
Just tell me he's a dumbocrap and I'll be fine. If he's a Republican, I've gotta be more upset than I already am.
There's a picture of him wearing a Trump 2020 shirt in a 2019 FB post that certainly SEEMS like the real thing. (Not having a FB account, I don't know how easy it would be to fool the system, it seems like "not very.")
And if there's a silver lining, it's that the attack was WAY more personal than political, so there shouldn't be any sort of amping up of violence.
Edit to add the picture in question
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2552937174763292&vanity=Brantleesjourney&slug=a.979704412086584&_rdr
Big huge debate in the comments about whether you can backdate a photo and not have it show up in edit history. It looks like no, but once again I don't know much about FB.
"...more personal than political..."
So...there wasn't anything written on the casings?
Haven't heard anything like that.
Me, neither.
But they do seem to be politically popular, and the irony of putting political messages on such a personal act...
😞😖
Glad (?) it was personal.
I thought scorned women were supposed to be the crazy ones. 🤔🤨
I guess he had some problems with substance abuse. Sad. Obviously sadder for the victims, though.
Apparently the wife and friends said his behavior was starting to change . Some thought he had PTSD issues from serving in the war . I honestly don’t know, it was part of the community gossip.
A superior effort from Mildred.
How do you know it was superior?
She's a cat.
Nuff said.
Lol and true.
*Any* effort from a cat would beat the expected!
Game recognize game.
I hadn't thought of that angle.
I was kinda hoping Mildred belonged to Chris...
She's so pretty.
I haven't been following the updates too closely, but looks like the attacker had a serious beef with the Mormon church after a breakup.
This was a very awful event. I’m so sad for the victims and all who were affected. I don’t care what denomination they were or even if it was a non-religious gathering. I’m definitely not pro-Muslim but I would be equally affected if someone firebombed and killed Muslims. I blame the left and MSM for fomenting violence against all kinds of people and groups.
Only question is what has happened to us???
I understand you're asking this seriously, and in that same vein I reply, "This is nothing".
Humans kill each other for the most ridiculous reasons. The last several decades have been pretty amazing on that front in America, but it's not like this is the first time an LDS church has had people bust into it to commit murder.
There's crazy people everywhere and they take it out on the rest of us all the time.
America has mostly avoided megadeaths, or even kilodeaths, in various internicine religious conflicts, but we've still had plenty.
My question was more directed to the what has happened to Americans as a culture in the last several decades. But of course what you say is true. War and death are a part of life, even in church, even today.
When I was a child my father would always greet Mormons, who were invariably male, at the door with a shotgun and ask them to leave or ask them to come in and remove their clothes, whereupon they would hurriedly leave. (Jehovahs Witneses were different in that they would sometimes send attractive young women, as bait.) Subsequently, I never got to find out much about Mormons. Are they actually Christians?
When growing up, my father would ask all the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their ilk in to deliver their spiel, only with the requirement that they listen to him proselytize atheism.
> Are they actually Christians?
Depends on whether one accepts "belief in and acceptance of Jesus Christ as the first son of the supreme creator" as evidence of Christianity.
Some don't.
Mostly, I think the game of "His position on my imaginary friend isn't exactly right" is fucking retarded, but your mileage may vary.
Does it require sacred temple undergarments to be in your club?
My late husband got tired of the JWs coming to the door (usually young to middle aged women) coming to the door. He answered the door naked. There was one more visit and I guess the word was passed on. Blood on the door, so to speak.
Simple and effective!
No . They use Christian language but their beliefs about God and Jesus are not the same.
Disclaimer: I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I find it absurd that someone who professes to believe in Jesus Christ is spouting nonsense about another church's belief in Jesus Christ. There are ideas of the Trinity that we DO NOT believe, and this is the major difference. Our beliefs are that Jesus and God the Father are different corporeal beings, with the Holy Ghost (Spirit) making up the Godhead. (think of it as a team)
James 14:6 (KJV) says " Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Sounds like two separate people.
Matthew 3:16-17 (KJV) says of Jesus' baptism:
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
There's more here indicative of 3 separate beings than believing they're all in one, when one is standing in the water, and the other one is speaking from heaven. Meanwhile a visualization of a 3rd spiritual party descending on Jesus.
Please. Save yourself. Stop trying to damn other people with unrighteous judgements. You don't have the power or authority to say who is not a Christian.
Greg Matsen, also a member of the church spoke with some degree of righteous anger towards those who seek to unfairly castigate us as non-Christians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZUXaSiuxRU
This is a gentler video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RlqgbUI3VM
LDS has taken parts of Christianity and created a totally different theology. It’s the same difference between Christianity and Judaism and Islam. LDS is a religion of works based on a different god. The differences you mentioned are critical. God is self-existing. He did not work himself up the ladder. Jesus was not created via a sexual act. He is God. Humans are never going to be gods like God. See godlovesmormons.com for more explanation.
It’s the same difference as religions that don’t proclaim Christ is King? Um, ok. Makes no sense. We both believe Christ alone will save us.
That makes us both Christian even though you believe in the man made creeds and we believe in the biblical and prophetic word. New Testament Christian’s did not believe in the trinity. See Stephen who saw the Father and the Son on his right hand.
Romans 8:17 says we will be joint heirs with Christ. You have to hand wave away the parts of the New Testament that disagree with your creeds and your theology suffers bc of it.
Right? I mean, who could think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints were Christians?
Obviously mere belief in Jesus isn't enough, one has to follow the precepts of the Council of Nicea 300 years after his death -- since clearly they were the absolute experts -- or one is simply a heretic. I mean, just ask Emperor Justinian!
It’s not just belief in the name of Jesus that matters . What you believe about Jesus is critical. Even the demons believe. Do you believe that your sins were forgiven by his sinless life , death, and resurrection? Do you believe that God is the creator of the universe and everything in it , including humans and angels ? Mormons don’t . Do you believe salvation is by grace through faith? These are foundational principles from the teachings of Jesus.
You are very confident, yet ignorant. Members of Christ’s church do believe in being forgiven by Christ who was sinless and resurrected the 3rd day. We also believe he created the world.
Grace is what saves us. But we believe works are also important to showing what type of person we are and desire to be. Christ spoke of works and commanded specific things be done on numerous occasions. I don’t think he was mistaken. Ultimately doing your best to be your best is what I think God wants us to do with the time we’ve been given. But in the end grace will still be what saves you.
Nobody in authority made you or the creeds you adhere to the gate of Christianity. Stop trying to close it on people that differ from you in the details but absolutely agree Christ is Lord.
I hope you’re saved. I don’t want to prevent anyone from salvation. The point of this thread was Are Mormons Christians? The details matter.
That’s not what your church teaches .
I may have to settle for L Ron Hubbard or, in his absence, John Travolta.
What choice would your father give the attractive young female Jehovah's Witnesses?
They were always welcome but I don't know what exactly happened because I would always be sent to my room after they were invited in. I have since met quite a few Jehovah's Witness women, although most were "disfellowshipped," even before meeting me.
I see.
I thought maybe the "bait" was sent in order to make your dad feel uncomfortable with asking them in to disrobe!
That could be. He was much more favorably disposed to the females than to the male. If any of the males had disrobed I think he would have used the shotgun.
Lol!
Nice.
I am really not the one to be asking here, as I've been following that conversation for two days and nobody can seem to decide one way or another.